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新阵容大猜想

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16#
 楼主| 发表于 2021-8-23 12:32:43 | 只看该作者
第一场比赛踢完,阵型方面的排布无需多说了,就随便说几个点吧。

新援鸭脖:

首秀很惊艳,但也离不开现在鸟叔用的走地面渗透的路线。大家应该看到了好几个球都是直塞前锋的经典传跑思路。时下现在比较流行这样的传跑流,鸭脖导致对方门将红牌,我想即便哲科在,也是做不到的,可以看出鸭脖的启动爆发力,这是年轻人和老将的区别。从兰帕德执掌蓝军时,鸭脖、芒特也算是地面传跑流的战术棋子,对于现在鸟叔的战术适应度和匹配度,鸭脖可以说非常适合。在意甲这个赛场,中后卫普遍都是老将,或者说速度方面并没有十分出众的球员,我猜鸭脖后面的比赛还是会非常管用。当然,大考还是要在对阵尤文和国米时,检验成色。

小穆:

目前看也适合传跑流,替补上来收割体力不行的后卫,而且有身体。可能还是因为流行吧,前场高大和速度冲出纵深还是流行元素。车子就更强化了这一点,前场卢卡库,后场用速度保护和破坏反击。

扎鸟:

大伤恢复踢首发,这是对他能力的信任的表现。但是跟丰塞卡带队时不同,他被要求回防了。用身体去扛,去骚扰,我想这是魔力鸟安排的。得牌很正常,总要有个适应过程。但是从侧面反映出,他不像以前拥有很长的时间去支配球了。也就是球权在减弱。一方面我猜是因为伤的原因,另一方面我猜跟边后卫也有关系。在他这一侧,卡斯多普就像意大利的因西涅和斯皮,一个走内线,一个走外线。丢球后,需要用大个子的身体去紧逼骚扰,这个问题我在很久前就说过了,有兴趣的可以去搜索一下。但扎鸟依然年轻,我相信他能成熟,对防守贡献也会越多。

韦勒图:

收获进球,尤其是在少了一人之后更明显,详细信息参考8楼。

右后卫:

卡尔斯多普技术能力一般,速度确实有,还是那句话,改造路子得像凯尔沃克一样。这一侧的防守问题,扎鸟在帮助他。如何解决,可能就是等一个能边能中的后卫,内收,专门防守就行了。这样也能让扎鸟踢的更轻松一点,球权也可以相应提升。

下一轮:

扎鸟停赛,给了佩雷斯机会,那是不是他跟右路的搭配也需要他丢球后参与防守呢?好在对方不强,下一轮可以好好看看。
17#
 楼主| 发表于 2021-9-18 14:55:08 | 只看该作者
上一场证明右边路两个小个子同时出场会拖累防守。
18#
 楼主| 发表于 2021-9-20 11:25:36 | 只看该作者
关于防守问题,在这里继续更新一下吧。

好多人都吐槽忐忑防守不行,容易失位,才暴露后防线给别人再丢球,真的是这样吗?

凌晨打维罗纳的比赛,第一个丢球,对方边路发动攻势,忐忑跟了回去(请注意“跟”这个词),曼奇尼脚滑,丢球。
第二个丢球,肋部进来,忐忑依旧跟回来,此时的曼奇尼在干嘛?盯着右路留出的空当,吃晃,导致没有能够及时顶上去(请注意“顶”这个词)。
第三个丢球,横向进来禁区边缘,球到对方脚下,忐忑果断顶上来(请注意“顶”这个词),但是还是进了。

现在来说说“跟”和“顶”的意义:

首先,罗马的右路目前是个痼疾,就导致一定要有人跟防,协防,尤其是卡斯多普在前面回来慢,就必须扯动一个防守点去封边路传中也好,过人也好,因为这是最后一道防线了,防不下来,就要被进球。
再有,如果面对维罗纳那样的边、中结合,比较立体的进攻呢?谁该跟,谁该顶?仅仅只是忐忑吗?
对方第一点发动进攻,这个时候就应该是忐忑,那么后防还留了一个机动防守的曼奇尼。而第一个丢球,曼奇尼顶的慢了,脚滑也可以理解,就算无奈吧。第二个丢球,相对明显一些,卡普拉里拿球,曼奇尼还在退,他一退,防守注意力在右侧,起脚的空间还是很大,那为什么曼奇尼还是顶的慢?把右路漏出来,即便不越位,他能射门的角度很小,怎么能打的进?传中也还有人在防守,怕什么?第三个丢球,不赘述。

所以,以现在的曼奇尼的防守意识,他还有很大的改进空间,如何处理好跟和顶的意识和能力,要专门敲打。而且上赛季他可是被改造过单后腰的,也就是你们嘴里心心念念的兽腰,但是也不成功,知道为什么了吗?更何况腰是要具备攻防转换能力的,单后腰要求则更高。

往后如何解决跟和顶的问题,应该是防守的重心。就算补后腰,也需要向更全面的需求靠拢,而不是单纯的拼命抢球的角色。而且这还影响着中场。

罗马几次阵型趋向于424,还是442,都改变不了2个中场的薄弱,我也一直在说罗马的后防托不起双中场的配置,这下能明白了么?

以后改352或许是条出路,但是前提是要保证立体性,边中结合,对抗和移动,前后要呼应,纵向和横向要加大联系,这才是强队的出路。当然,曼奇尼不改变,罗马成不了强队。(这句话,先说一半,欲知详情,请听下回分解。)
19#
发表于 2021-9-20 13:17:14 | 只看该作者
第二个球,在肋部,更多的是边后卫区域,后卫退,选择防下底而不是内切我觉得没有问题,因为通常下底横传的威胁更大,中后卫区域则要求顶,因为正面球拉过来通常距离近,角度大
第三个球,忐忑身边并没有进攻队员,他位置沉的太底

点评

我也觉得第三个球忐忑背大锅 一个后腰快退到了小禁区线了 身边一个攻方球员也没有 不知道他当时是怎么站到这个位置上的  发表于 2021-9-20 13:54
20#
 楼主| 发表于 2021-9-21 00:27:20 | 只看该作者
红狼06 发表于 2021-9-20 13:17
第二个球,在肋部,更多的是边后卫区域,后卫退,选择防下底而不是内切我觉得没有问题,因为通常下底横传的 ...

什么?传中要比直接面对球门射门难度大?而且要跟住传中的人,不应该是中卫的事情,只有当边后卫跟不住,中后卫要去补,后腰要补回中后卫的点,就是你说的,腰要去防传中的近点。那么倒三角呢?中路是不是漏人了?
然后就解释了第三个丢球,忐忑沉到防线上,不是因为沉的太深才导致顶出来慢了一步,而是它的目的是缩小两个中卫之间的距离。那缩短距离你们觉得是为什么?往上看,你能理解了吗?

上个赛季好多人吹斯莫林很厉害,怎么怎么样,但是那些莫名其妙的丢球少吗?反倒对方正儿八经的打到斯莫林这一侧只开花不结果,这是为什么呢?上个赛季我也说了,意甲前6还有像样的前锋,后面这些呢?基本没有,所以这些前锋打不到罗马的痛处,所以感觉虐菜强,赢下就能进欧冠。可是对阵前6呢?哪怕什么佩德罗莱昂这些,罗马的防守压力一下就大了。
再回过头来看小西蒙尼,这场比赛有机会吗?再往前倒一倒,斯卡马卡盯着比尼亚打,这都已经撑不住了快,而斯莫林呢?他在哪?还不是岌岌可危?

所以,整个体系是有缺陷的,尤其在防守方面。像这场比赛,卡普拉里内切走内线,谁跟谁顶和左路传过来弧顶没有人,防的方法可是不一样的,谁跟谁顶?何必什么锅都甩给忐忑?防守体系的建立,还得要看手里有谁,谁身边站谁。整个体系,关乎到全队,而不是局部某个人。
21#
发表于 2021-9-21 03:54:53 | 只看该作者
如果穆帅喜欢4后卫 最后复制十几年前的国米阵型得了。
abraham当milito
zaniolo当etoo
p7当sneider
这不m77已经当后腰在使用了。。。
22#
发表于 2021-9-21 07:57:19 | 只看该作者
Point #1: After Sunday’s loss to Verona, are you more or less convinced that Roma’s top winter priority should be a defensive midfielder?
Jordan Veretout (Roma) with the ball and Bryan Cristante (...
Photo by Giuseppe Fama/Pacific Press/LightRocket via Getty Images
Bran: I think that was the priority regardless of this result. Sure, I’m willing to hear the argument that this result reinforces the idea that a defensive midfielder should be Roma’s top winter priority, but all phases of the team were lacking Sunday, and we already knew what position was at the top of Mourinho’s wish list in terms of reinforcements. I don’t think this result changes the urgency with which Roma signs a DM, it still seems more contingent on shipping off more deadwood than anything.

Bren: To be frank, I agree with most of what you just said, but I’m actually growing increasingly more concerned about the right-back spot. Rick Karsdorp has been a revelation, particularly when you consider where he was as recently as a year ago. He’s certainly done well to put his injury woes behind him, but if they resurface, Mourinho may be up a creek without a paddle. In that light, adding depth to that position seems more important. I think there are some young talents who can play the defensive midfield position, it’s just a matter of whether or not Mourinho trusts them.

In that sense, it’s no different than the right-back depth issue, but I think there are simply more in-house options for defensive midfielder than there are for the right-back, where we only have the young and untested Bryan Reynolds. At least Ebrima Darboe got some consistent run down the stretch last year and looked pretty damn impressive if I’m being honest. We can’t say the same for Reynolds yet, so I believe right-back is the more pressing need.

Bran: That’s a great point. It’s pretty clear that either Mourinho doesn’t exactly rate Bryan Reynolds, or he’s trying to send a message to Reynolds to start getting it together. On top of that, Mourinho was asked about Santon, to which he responded by saying that he hasn’t thought about reintegrating anyone into the squad. So, with that context in mind, right-back may be a position to look into this winter.

Bren: Right-back and defensive midfield are critical areas, too, and have been for several years now, so Pinto may have his work cut out for him this winter. The Reynolds situation is particularly troubling to me, especially when you consider he came to Roma over Juve, in part, because they allegedly promised not to send him on loan. The kid is a physical specimen—you don't often see full-backs with his size—so I have to believe that, with proper coaching, he can be quite an asset for Roma, but to date, he’s not being given the chance.

At this point, I'm wondering if there is a RB/DM hybrid we can sign! That would solve all our problems.

Point #2: Are there any in-house options or tactical tweaks Mourinho could make in the meantime to bolster the midfield?
AS Roma Training Session
Photo by Luciano Rossi/AS Roma via Getty Images
Bran: I could see Mourinho switching to three at the back in order to add another player to the midfield, with the caveat that I don’t think this happens unless Roma goes on an extremely poor run of form and Mourinho really needs to switch things up. With Mancini, Ibanez, Smalling, and Kumbulla all at his disposal, Mourinho has the option to consistently play three at the back and rotate as needed. I don’t think the team is best suited to play this way long-term, but for a quick jolt in the arm for the squad, I can get behind it.

Bren: I’ll take your idea and tweak it a tad. We’ve already seen what Gianluca Mancini can do as a defensive midfielder, and given the depth in defense you just mentioned, a positional switch could be the cure to Roma’s midfield ails, at least until the January window opens and they can get a proper DM. But Mancini has enough touch and athleticism to play the position, while Darboe looked like a solid regular in the making last season under Fonseca, so there are actually multiple, viable options for this position. Adding to that, changing formations, while extreme, could be the solution but I might suggest a more lateral 4-3-3, which could prevent the midfield from being overwhelmed.

Bran: Again, I think I’d have to agree with you here. I did toy with the idea of having Mancini as a CDM in my initial response, but I’m not sure Mourinho will turn to this barring a significant injury crisis. Having said that, slotting Mancini into the midfield with Veretout and Cristante in a 4-3-3 formation might just be the tweak needed to stabilize the midfield.

Bren: Dude, we're supposed to argue!! This would be an entirely different debate—one we might tackle later on—but where does Mancini offer more value: as a center-back or a defensive midfielder? He's still young enough to make the switch, but you have to wonder if the opportunity cost of training him up is worth removing him from the backline.

Point #3: Should Nicolo Zaniolo be replaced in the starting lineup, at least temporarily?
Hellas Verona FC v AS Roma - Serie A
Photo by Emmanuele Ciancaglini/CPS Images/Getty Images
Bran: I don’t see the benefit in doing so. My love for Zaniolo aside, I do think that the best way to get him back in form is to keep playing him. Context matters here and we have to remember that this is more or less Zaniolo’s first few matches in two years. It’s going to take some time before he’s firing on all cylinders again, and I don’t see the value in benching him seven games into the season. There will be a point in time where you think about replacing him if this poor run of form continues, but we aren’t there yet by any means.

Bren: Man, you’re really tempting me to throw this entire format out already! I love Zaniolo but let me make a case for removing him, at least for a few weeks.

Number one: As important as it is for him to get match time, we also have to keep his psyche/mental well-being in mind. If he struggles, and struggles, and struggles, they’d run the risk of sapping his confidence and aggression. Taking a few weeks away from the starting eleven might give him a chance to look at things with fresh eyes, to observe Mourinho’s tactics from afar, and this mental break might actually serve him well in the long run. None of this is to suggest he has any issues with that, but sometimes just being given the opportunity to reset and attack things with fresh eyes can do wonders.

Number two: To be quite frank, I”m not sure the club is in any position to essentially play short-handed if Zaniolo is off his game or not 100% fit, so using someone like Carles Pérez as the start might benefit the club as a whole in the short-term. Even just a 50/50 job share might be enough to reinvigorate him.

Bran: Don’t scrap the idea just yet! There’s bound to be a truly divisive topic down the road, and I’m sure the readers will be heartbroken if they don’t get to see us truly lock horns. Having said that, you make some fair points here. I’d be more inclined to give Pérez a run-out if he was influencing games more, sure he’s looked sharp in the appearances that he’s made thus far this season, but I’ll still take my chances with Zaniolo starting, the potential to influence games is just so much higher.

Bren: I think above all else, we really need to be objective with Zaniolo, and that cuts both ways. We laugh and joke (light-heartedly) about Roma's ACL issues, but this kid has suffered two catastrophic knee injuries just as his career was taking off. There's a mental and physical toll that comes along with fighting back from that, which will force Mourinho to really assess what the causes of his struggles are: Is it his knees or in between his ears?

I'm genuinely surprised how large of a role Pérez has carved out under Mourinho so far, but I'm not 100% confident he's ready to be the week-in-week-out starter just yet. So if Roma’s two options are U-23 kids—one fresh off major injuries and the other relegated to the bench for most of his tenure here—Mourinho may be best served by riding the hot hand until Zaniolo proves he can be counted on every weekend.

Point #4: Are you at all worried that this loss is a sign of things to come, of some systemic issues within the squad, or was this a one-off?
Hellas Verona FC v AS Roma - Serie A
Photo by Emmanuele Ciancaglini/CPS Images/Getty Images
Bran: I think it’s a little bit of both, but I’ll chalk this off as a one-off result for now. There are obvious problems in the midfield and with the team switching off defensively, but can we really legislate for a game in which your opponent is operating on the post-EDF sacking boost?

Jokes aside, there certainly is something to the boost teams get following a mid-season manager sacking, and is something Mourinho hinted at himself in his pre-match presser. New coach for the opponent, wonder goal to beat you, etc., I think if we replayed this match nine times, Roma would win at least eight of them, but sometimes the result just doesn’t go your way. There are obvious issues to be addressed, but it’s not time to hit the panic button just yet.

Bren: Purely for the sake of debate, I’ll say that yes, there are some systemic issues we may be looking at, none of which are directly Mourinho’s fault. I can’t take credit for this line of thinking myself as it popped up in the comment section after yesterday’s match, but this team is a bit heavy on the attack. And Mourinho suggested in his post-match presser that forwards like Zaniolo weren’t doing their defensive due diligence, which puts other players in compromising positions, which, in turn, weakens the entire defense.

I’m not sure what the workable solution is at the moment, but if this were an NFL team, Roma was spending all their early-round draft picks on running backs and receivers while kitting out the defense with undrafted free agents.

I don’t think this imbalance will prevent them from achieving their goals, but it’s certainly becoming a noticeable trait, particularly in the wake of their first defeat of the season.

Bran: Is that a systemic issue, though? Or, are Roma merely victims of circumstance? For what feels like the first time in however many years, Roma finally have a plethora of attacking options at their disposal, making them multifaceted in the attack and tricky to gameplan against, and that’s a credit to the work done in the summer transfer window.

True, the evidence suggests that Roma are a bit top-heavy, but I think we can chalk that up to the Spinazzola’s injury, the time it’s taken for Smalling to return to full fitness, and Tiago Pinto’s hands being tied in the marketplace by an inability to ship out some of the bloated contracts on the books, all issues that can and will be resolved at some point.

Bren: Well, I guess that depends on how we define systemic as it relates to Roma. If the constant upheaval on the bench and the boardroom is the root cause of these roster construction issues, then yes, I think we have a systemic issue (albeit one they can stop simply by, you know, not firing people so frequently), but I don't want this debate to become a semantics issue.

But the systemic vs. circumstantial debate is an interesting one. Ultimately, I think the imbalance looks worse than it is because much of that imbalance stems from the fact that Roma doesn't have a pure defensive midfielder. Adding someone like that to the mix, like a Zakaria or Xhaka, could iron out a lot of these wrinkles and bring some much-needed balance to the equation.

I also think we have to note that we're still so incredibly early in the season and into Mourinho's tenure as manager, so we should expect all manners of hiccups during his first few weeks and months on the job. In some ways, I think the perfect start makes these minuscule issues appear more serious than they might be. Time will tell.
23#
发表于 2021-9-21 07:59:07 | 只看该作者
以上是老外的讨论,一个简单的问题,除了4231 穆帅的备用阵型是什么
如果说 对手针对了4231的弱点,如何适时调整

点评

我懒,你就好人做到底,帮忙翻译一下。  发表于 2021-9-21 09:54
24#
 楼主| 发表于 2021-9-21 10:28:40 | 只看该作者
Spalletti 发表于 2021-9-21 07:59
以上是老外的讨论,一个简单的问题,除了4231 穆帅的备用阵型是什么
如果说 对手针对了4231的弱点,如何适 ...

我大致看了一下,边后卫的问题,我一直在说卡尔斯多普需要像凯尔沃克一样踢,把他填充进中路,毕竟他速度不慢的,防守时拉出去到边路。
至于雷诺兹,我也没看过他比赛,风格上也不一定能判断对。但右路防守问题还是需要讲一个协防问题,除非雷诺兹跟防意识,一对一成功率都相对高,那么就直接影响了右边锋位置,谁状态好上谁,不用防守,彻底放手进攻。他们讨论里还加入了桑顿,我觉得他完全胜任不了,顺位比雷诺兹、中后卫打右边卫都还靠后。

至于备用阵型是什么,我在一楼有说过,他们也谈到了433,但是我始终认为曼奇尼做不了单后腰,而在这么关键的攻防转换的位置用他,还不如去买进来呢。
最后他们也说到扎卡和扎卡里亚的问题,1月能进扎卡里亚的话,4231还能运转。如果买不来,我也是不看好曼奇尼改打后腰的。
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